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Resources from this episode

• Professor Ball’s (current) favorite teaching object: the Stavelot Triptych
• Instructions for the “recreate an object” assignment

Credits

AHA Pedagogy is produced by Forrest Pelsue. Our theme music was composed and performed by Aaron Edgcomb, who is also our editor. Special thanks to Marisa Orozco for her insight on podcasting, and to Luke Waltzer for supervising this project as part of the Interactive Technology and Pedagogy certificate program at the CUNY Graduate Center.

Transcript

[Intro music plays]

Forrest Pelsue: Hello! I’m your host, Forrest Pelsue, a PhD student in Art History at the Graduate Center of the City University of New York, or as we call it, CUNY. 

As part of my graduate studies, I am also working as a teaching fellow, which involves leading my very own undergraduate survey of art history class. This experience has raised a lot of questions for me about what it means to teach art history at a public university in the 21st century, and if you’re listening to this, then maybe you have some of the same questions. 

For our inaugural episode, I’m joined by Dr. Jennifer Ball, professor of Medieval Studies at Brooklyn College and professor and executive officer in the PhD program in Art History at the CUNY Graduate Center. Professor Ball has taught in the CUNY system for over 21 years, and I was excited to hear how her experience teaching undergrads at Brooklyn College has shaped both her pedagogy and her own personal research. We talk about the challenges of teaching three-dimensional objects in a classroom setting, consider whether there is a particular “CUNY style” of teaching, and reflect on the importance of not being over-prepared.

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Forrest Pelsue: Hello Jen. 

Prof. Jennifer Bal: Thank you for asking me, it’s really nice. I love to talk about teaching. 

FP: Yes, that’s why I asked you, I figured you’d be a good person. Well, and I know you spent a lot of time thinking about it. Also, you teach the pedagogy class in the program, so I figured you would have thoughts to share. 

JB: I do. 

FP: Um, great, so I’m just gonna dive right in. 

JB: Okay. 

FP: And I want to know, this is a question that I’m asking everyone because this is the AHA Pedagogy Podcast, Art History and Pedagogy, but I want to know, what was an AHA moment for you when teaching? 

JB: Okay, oh, I just got the AHA, which I did not before. 

FP: Yeah, yeah.

JB: Um, I think maybe my biggest, first, earliest AHA moment was sort of in the negative, but was very helpful, which is that it took me probably a few times of having this, where you would actually get negative feedback on a, on a evaluation from a student, not a peer, and it took a few times, but kind of realizing how yourself, who you know, is not necessarily who the students see, and being, even though I generally have good evaluations, being shocked sometimes, thinking, that student doesn’t know me at all, why would they think that? And kind of realizing a lot about teaching is about actually playing a role, or how you portray yourself, and they don’t know you, and so they can really misconstrue you, and I think in one of these early comments, it was something about them feeling like I was really, like, conceited, or something like that, I thought, well, it’s really not, yeah, that’s really not typically, I think, how I am. 

FP: I agree.

JB: Thank you, but I was like, whoa, I don’t want to come across that way, yeah, and so just having that realization that, you know, as many people in the classroom, as many interpretations of who you are, and then that can block them from learning or listening, they can put up a wall if they don’t like whatever they perceive you as being. 

FP: Yeah, I sent an email recently to my students, and I had had, we were doing a museum visit, and I had had people suddenly, you know, the day of, the day before, like, oh, I don’t know if I can make it after all, da-da-da, and I, like, sent kind of a strictly worded email to everyone, being like, this is expected, you’re supposed to come, like, I expect you to be there, and then I kind of reread it, and was like, wow, this does not, I sound like a teacher, I sound like someone else. 

JB: Yeah, is this me? I know, sometimes it’s true, you have to think about your tone, and sometimes you want to be that person, you aren’t really, I find I have to, like, muster up the energy to say something hard. Yeah, but it’s, yeah, it’s hard, because myself, my person, who I walk around with in my life, is not naturally a teacher, I don’t think. 

FP: Or I like, I like sharing information, but, like, the discipline definitely comes harder to me, and that definitely feels like, yeah, having to kind of put on this teacher persona. 

JB: Yes, yes. 

FP: Totally. So, you’ve been teaching for a long time here at CUNY.

JB: 2003 was my first year. 

FP: Okay, so 21 years, that’s a lot of experience with the undergrads, and so you were originally based at Brooklyn College, and so maybe this is, like, a kind of, just a shorter answer question, but, and I’m saying that because I think it can be a really big answer, but I, can we, can we make it, how short can we make it? If, if undergrad students remember only one thing from your classes at Brooklyn College, what do you hope is their, is their main takeaway? 

JB: Oh, that is such a hard question. That, probably that, this is really basic, but history, not just art history, is actually really fun and interesting. It drives me crazy when people perceive, including my own kids in their history classes, perceive that history is boring. 

FP: Yeah, that’s great, I like that. That it’s, yeah, that it’s fun, that it’s engaging, that it, yeah, is relevant, and so then on that note, what is, just kind of digging more into your teaching, and again, I’m really interested in, like, your undergraduate teaching experience, since that’s a lot of what we’re doing as graduate teaching fellows, what’s an object that you love to use when you’re teaching?

JB: I sort of fall in love with different objects at different times, and I get really into something for a while, and then I move on. I really like teaching medieval reliquaries, things like the Stavro Triptych at the Morrigan would be a good example. I love also teaching anything where there is a portrait of a person, and getting, and talking about dress, and textiles, and kind of all the things that you can get out of it. It’s really, yeah, but I think I probably am most attracted to, yeah, three-dimensional objects. I do, I, one of my favorite assignments that I’ve done with students is I have them make their own reproduction of an object. That’s so cool. In the class that I teach on medieval objects, to get them to start to think about how something is made. I mean, they can make it out of paper, or bar of soap, or whatever, something easy, but, and so it kind of almost doesn’t matter there what the object is with the things I like. Yeah, so that was a pretty vague answer, because I change my mind too often.

FP: No, that’s fair. I feel the same. I feel like I like to change it up, but yeah, I guess that leads me to ask, too, especially for three-dimensional objects, it’s so hard to teach them in the classroom. Do you have, I think having the students make it is really a great way to kind of get around, because so much of what we’re looking at are just images on a screen, but do you have other strategies for when you’re talking about three-dimensional objects? 

JB: Yeah, I do a lot of stuff with scale, and making sure that the scale is clear through objects or things that they know, especially also because they’re on a huge screen, you know, so everything is skewed. I also talk a lot about handling and use and where it would be in life, you know, objects in a church, it’s on an altar, you’re sitting far away, and I often will use the classroom situation to sort of say, you’re looking at something the size of my notes, and in the back of the classroom, you’re probably the closest person to this, you know, would you be able to see this painting of Christ, and certainly you couldn’t read the words if someone was holding up a book, you know, kind of thing. Yeah. So I do a lot of things like that, and then hopefully with almost every class, I try and get them to actually go look at real art in a museum, and I do different museum assignments. 

FP: I hear from my students every semester so far that their favorite part is going to the museums. That’s what it’s all about.

JB: Exactly. 

FP: Yeah, I wish I could teach every class in the galleries.

JB: I do too. Sometimes it’s a bummer, Brooklyn College is so far away.

FP: So thinking about teaching as something that’s also integral to what we do professionally oftentimes, like it’s not just, it’s not separate, it’s not like a separate person that teaches, even if we have a persona. I’m really curious if you have thoughts on how teaching has changed your approach to art history. Because I find that teaching really helps ground me and brings clarity, although sometimes it feels very different from what I do, like in my research. And so I’m curious, I’m just starting out, but I wonder if you feel like it starts to go back and forth. 

JB: I mean, I think there are a couple of things. One is that because I study textiles and dress, and those objects are not typically taught in art history classes. I mean, certainly one approach is that I try to bring them in more, but sort of going the other direction, students will… I realize that the questions that they ask, often quite basic, are not even really known about textiles. And so it’s often, it’s taught me to think, okay, an art historical approach to textiles really starts with simple questions. How is this made? What was it used for? What, because they’re usually scraps, what was the original object? And textile studies historically have been done in a technical way, usually by conservators and things like that. And I’m amazed, even when I go to a scholarly conference, how my, often what I think of as my introductory remarks, just setting the stage for what this object was at one time, it was kind of eye-opening to people. And I very much get that from undergraduate questions about things and saying, okay, nobody knows this information, they don’t really understand it.

And then kind of additionally, it’s forced me also to create, try to create, I need assistance, images that are trying to like 3D model like interior spaces with textiles, and put textiles back into places, because people just can’t imagine it. At Brooklyn College, there are a lot of digital artists, and I walk by this screen of digital, student digital objects all the time, and they’re always doing things where they kind of almost collage in objects into other, into real scenes. There’s one right now that’s up, it’s like a subway with these kind of weird, cool people protesting inside the subway that have been inserted. It’s kind of a cool project. But it really kind of gets my mind going like, oh yeah, I need to do that for like a Byzantine palace. Which we don’t really have except in archaeological remains, but if you see it with the textiles, it’s also going to take away that idea of it being like a stone or brick wall, you know, building, cavernous. And so I think people who work with textiles all the time know that, but even art historians who are pretty well trained don’t easily imagine that. I would say that kind of additional information really comes from my students. 

FP: That’s great. The, yeah, the kind of place setting and the, like, so what kind of question, like, can you think of a question that prompted you that someone’s asked? Is it just kind of like, you know, what, where does this go? 

JB: Yeah, I mean, sometimes it’s simple, like, where does this go? But I think it’s also often that students tend to automatically think that textiles are clothes, and so they’ll very often, it would happen all the time, well, how is this worn? Is this a cape? And I’ll be like, no, this is probably a wall hanging. And sort of just the realization of the set of assumptions that students are making generally about these is pretty eye-opening, I guess, just to say, oh, yeah. 

FP: It’s hard. I think I’ve found that this is one of the more challenging things for me, is to try and go back and see, look at the slides I put together as if I’d never seen them before, and try and look at these objects as if I had no idea what they are. It’s so hard. 

JB: It’s really hard, and it’s often, I mean, going back to your aha question, that happens. I mean, less now, because I’m more prepared for it, but that happens a lot, right, where the student asks a question, and you think, what? That’s not obvious, or that’s not clear, even sometimes a student thinking that, you know, a painting is a photograph, or even, like, a sculpture is a painting, you know, kind of thing, and you’re like, oh. 

FP: Or a textile is a painting. 

JB: Yeah, exactly. So, that is really helpful to try and keep imagining. What are they seeing? What do they really see? It’s hard. I mean, I think that’s why it’s helpful when teaching, to change a lot what you teach. 

FP: Keep it fresh for yourself. 

JB: Yeah, if, when you start not to see what you’re teaching, because you’re so used to it, it’s not great for your students. 

FP: Yeah, and I’ve heard from, I’ve heard from students, even after, you know, we’ve taught for one semester, already in the second semester, teaching the same object, we come into it now, like, with an idea of what the students will say in response to it, also. Like, not just our own, yes, how we see it, but then we start to assume how the students, yes, see it also. 

JB: Right, and the great thing about CUNY, I think, is that you’re always gonna be surprised by them, their questions, and what they know. Yeah, and I think I’ve taught at a few places that are a little more, or a lot more homogenous, and that doesn’t happen so much, so it’s helpful to have the really huge variety of perspectives coming in. 

FP: Yeah, yeah, CUNY students are a special group in so many ways. So, maybe thinking now more about how you teach the pedagogy course, and you know, now, are you going to be teaching it again in the spring? 

JB: Actually, Caitlin Beach is going to teach it. 

FP: Oh, amazing. 

JB: You know, I thought, obviously, she’s been only teaching undergrads for the last few years, so I thought it might be a good opportunity to like exercise that, but I also thought it would be helpful for a different non-CUNY perspective. I mean, I have taught at other places prior to CUNY, but very little, and it’s been a long time, and so I think it could kind of be interesting. 

FP: Do you feel like there’s like a CUNY approach?

JB: That’s interesting. I don’t think there is. Sometimes I feel very aligned with my colleagues, but then I’ll go and I’ll do observations and watch other people teach, and I’ll think, oh, that’s interesting. I didn’t think of that. I do think there’s a CUNY approach in style, maybe, that I don’t know too many people who just lecture, and I think our students want to be active, and I don’t know too many people who don’t consider that their classroom might have somebody from the part of the world that you’re teaching, or somebody from the religion that is brought up. I think that that changes the dynamic, that you know that there’s always going to be somebody who has a connection to what you’re teaching in a way that doesn’t happen, I think, in some parts of our country, at least. 

FP: For sure. So, with your 21-plus years of experience teaching, is there a piece of advice that you wish you’d been given when you started at Brooklyn College? 

JB: I mean, probably it took me a while to learn trial by fire, that less is more. Over-teaching kills, or over-preparation and over-use of too many objects kills discussion. You think that you are a vehicle for delivering a certain amount of information, and that actually your job is much more to bring them out and get them to talk, and talk about things to cement what they’re reading or what they’re seeing. And I think that that is so much more likely to happen with fewer objects. If you just, you know, not talk for a minute, they will start to talk. Getting used to a moment of silence will make a much livelier classroom. And I had sort of started to pare down before Brooklyn College, but not really. I really learned that here. 

FP: That’s actually a good reminder for me. I was just preparing a lecture for tomorrow, and I was thinking, like, I have so much that they need to know. Like, I have so much I need to tell them. But you’re so right. It’s like, it’s not about what I’m telling them. It’s about what they’re, what I’m able, where I’m able to guide them to. 

JB: Yeah. Getting them to see, getting them to discuss and use vocabulary, and talk about actually what they’re looking at, not just, like, something related to themselves. You know, like, all that kind of stuff. Yeah.

FP: Yeah. You mentioned also that you felt, you know, a little, like, trial by fire, or, like, there are certain things that you just have to, like, figure out. 

JB: Yeah. No pedagogy class in my class. 

FP: Yes. Well, okay, so my question, then, is, do you think that pedagogy can be taught? 

JB: Yes and no. I think always in pedagogy, there are a few people who, right out of the gate, are, just have natural instincts to teach. They are able to put themselves in the position of the student. I think, very quickly, and that helps them a lot. But I think that the ones who maybe don’t have that instinct right away, I do think you can give them a lot of tools, and I don’t believe, not just for teaching teachers, but really anyone, I don’t believe that there’s such a thing. I used to hear, when I first worked at CUNY, older teachers would make comments about students being unteachable. I don’t think that that’s true. I think you just haven’t figured out the way to show them yet. It’s a lot easier, obviously, in a graduate classroom. But, no, I think people can learn the tools and totally get it.

I do think that there is, on the flip side, you need to be who you are as a teacher, or it’s never going to be natural. You can’t pretend to be somebody who is funny, if you’re not funny, or whatever it is. And so, in that regard, I do think you have to be yourself, and you might have certain beliefs about teaching, and those aren’t going to go away. You kind of have to work with what you have. But, yes, skills, definitely, you can learn skills. 

FP: Yeah, yeah. I agree, I agree. It was a particularly worded question to be, I think it’s not, you can’t answer it, but it comes out of thinking about, yeah, that it feels very like you just, yeah, you just have to do it, in order to, I think you can learn the tools, but you have to do it to really understand how the tools get applied, and when things are appropriate.

JB: Yeah, yeah. And I think until, even though pedagogy helps, it helps in the preparation, and maybe making students feel slightly less nervous about walking into the classroom, but I, there is no way. You don’t realize until someone, you see someone in front of you falling asleep, or someone is a dominator in your class, and won’t stop asking questions, and you’re like, whoa, I have to control this person. Or, you think you did an amazing job, and then they take a quiz, and they all do horribly. And you don’t really know what’s going on until after you do that a lot.

FP: Yeah, and then it changes, and then the next semester, it’s different students, and. 

JB: So true. I know. Classroom dynamics are really interesting. 

FP: Everything you’ve worked on is. 

JB: Yeah. Yeah, that is really true. I know, there’s all this literature right now about the science of teaching, that I find a lot of it very interesting, or it’s not that new anymore, but kind of around the time I think I first taught pedagogy, it was quite new, and I find it really interesting, but it’s still the kind of thing where I read, and it’s, it doesn’t actually help me change anything. The only thing that helps me change is practice. But, not, not surprising, it’s a, it’s a practice, not a, like, set of information that you study.

FP: Yeah. Um, does it, does it get easier? 

JB: Yes. Although, of course, I will still have bad classes or things that don’t go well, but yes, definitely. I don’t feel, um, if I go, if I run into class and I’m totally unprepared, I have made it to the point where I’m like, I know this, I can, I can float through. It’s not my ideal, and I don’t do that, but it happens. And also, I’m much better at handling the student problems or management of that stuff, I feel much more comfortable. That used to really cause a lot of strife when I was young.

FP: And that brings me to maybe what will be my final question, then, which is, yeah, I guess that idea of how things have changed over the time that you’ve been teaching. Do you feel like, I mean, I imagine, I know your teaching has grown and changed, but do you feel like just teaching in general, or the students, have you noticed, like, real shifts? Do you see, because obviously, you know, things change culturally and politically, but I wonder, within the classroom, if it is reflective of that? 

JB: I actually don’t think it is, has changed as much as one would think. Certain things, like, I never obviously envisioned in 2002 that I would be asking my students for their pronouns, you know, obviously, that’s like a new thing, but it doesn’t really change my interaction with the students. I do think that I can sometimes tell, because we’re in CUNY, kind of big changes in the public school system, because most of them are in New York City public school, that the core curriculum of, I guess it’s New York or the United States, I’m not actually sure, has made people a little bit better prepared in terms of history, which is kind of nice, just knowing some basics. I used to be really surprised sometimes at what was not known. And so those, that core curriculum has caught up, and now it’s regularly part of middle school, high school, so when they get to us, I think that there’s been improvement there. And I think writing has gotten harder to teach. 

FP: Interesting. 

JB: I do know that it’s taught a lot in high school, but in such a formulaic way. Yeah. And so if they got that lesson, but people did not, in my experience, learn any basics about really research writing. 

FP: Yeah, so improvements in some areas, and it’s all, I guess, up in one area, down in another.

JB: Yeah, and it’ll probably, and I bet if we were talking to some, I don’t know, math professors or something, they would have a different set of changes. I mean, I think probably we’re always going to, the curriculum is not set in our country as one thing, and so it’s always going to be fluctuating, I think.

FP: Well, Thank you so much, Jen. 

JB: Thank you!

FP: It’s been great talking to you as always about these topics.

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[Outro music plays]

FP: So ends episode one! You can find a transcript of this episode, information about Prof. Ball’s favorite teaching object, and other handy resources on our website: ahapedpod.commons.gc.cuny.edu.

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